Wednesday, 28 October 2020

More Progress News

Hello again,

This is just a small post to let you all know that I'm still working on the race refactoring and modding support. It's taking me a lot longer to get implemented than I'd initially planned, but there really isn't too much left for me to do now. I'm hoping to have something ready to push to github by the end of this week or the start of the next one. After that, I'll spend a week or so adding some Fields content before making a public release of v0.4.

Once again, I'm sorry for how long this is taking me to get done.

932 comments:

  1. big bruh moment

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    1. big nah moment... there won't be any progress at all, she just wasting time for some dumb shit, instead of actually making something

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    3. We'll see, mate. She actually gave an estimated date.

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  2. Replies
    1. Same dude, I came here when it was ver. 03 (Tuesday, 25 December 2018
      Version 0.3 Release) and now - it's still fking not a 04 yet! Like O my god - this game takes NO progress, all what can we hear every week - "Im sorry for :tape the reason:". Like you rly do should be sorry. Not just for money, but for even an interest wich people do put in here, and you did nothing to make them stay.
      Im saying it agait - almost three years for ver 4 !! Even those agressive defenders can't call this a "progress" !

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    2. You can play the game at absolutely no cost whatsoever. I get that you've invested your interest in the game, but Inno doesn't owe you anything. They're working at the pace they're comfortable with and slandering them in the comments isn't going to make them work any faster for your sake. Find something else to do in the meantime and enjoy the releases when they do come. For fuck's sake, homie.

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  3. July 12, 2021.
    Lilith's Throne.
    Timestamp of development ceasing.

    >>DEVLOG 872
    ======================
    6507 fatal errors reported. It's all so tiresome. v0.4 has had a lackluster road of development. After implementing 300 different branching mechanics that do not contribute to progressing the storyline, I have been forced to constantly repair bug after bug. It's a lost cause. My depression has been holding me back from feeling 100% to further development, despite my astronomically high monthly income on my SubscribeStar received from Reddit moderators. I just don't feel like it anymore.

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    1. Shut the fuck up asshole

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    2. Yes, the astronomically high income of... $21/hr, assuming a standard work week.
      Truly, she is the bourgeoisie.

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    3. Your math is slightly off, it's more like 28 dollars an hour. Which is a hell of a lot of money considering the sheer amount of work that doesn't get done.

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    4. Innoxia gets paid $4511 per month purely based on their SubscribeStar income. Don't know if they have a 2nd job but if that's what you're implying, then that's a standard work salary + $4511/month, that's pretty damn high if you ask me.

      There isn't a way to measure the hourly pay based on the SubscribeStar, but it does say exactly how many people are paying and for what tier.

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    5. 21 bucks an hour is not bad at all. I don't know what jobs all of you had.
      Stop making excuses for her, she doesn't even make (that many) excuses for herself. You don't need to bully her, but stop coddling her. You are doing nothing to help her.

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    6. Well, a whole month without a release, not a bad start towards fulfilling the prophecy from OP.

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    7. @Pope of the Church of Vrelnir

      First off, I really appreciate the way you make your point; it's really easy on the internet to default to hyperbole and shouting, so I really appreciate that you make your point calmly, rationally, clearly and kindly.

      I would like to ask about your second paragraph. "You don't need to bully her, but stop coddling her. You are doing nothing to help her." I suspect you talked about this in prior posts, but I admit to being too lazy to go looking, so perhaps you'd explain again: what do you mean by that?

      I've heard that point from others as well, so even though I don't understand, I'm pretty sure there's something to it. If I had to guess, (and please, please correct me if I'm getting this wrong) you're saying that while all the hate sent toward Inno does nothing, all the "it's okay, we support you, take all the time you need" comments dissuade her from buckling down and working on the game, hence doing nothing to help her. (To use a drug use metaphor, it's enabling behavior; you're not getting your cokehead brother his cocaine, but by helping him out with rent you're indirectly allowing him to continue his habit.)

      The main reason why I don't already agree with this is that it seems to imply that she is not working wholeheartedly on it. While it's not an unreasonable assumption, the evidence for it is somewhat mixed. (We can interpret the delays as lack of effort or as legitimate coding roadblocks, and have no way to distinguish between them.) However, the fact that others have espoused the same view as you makes me think I've missed a key point here; would you be willing to tell me what part I missed?

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    8. @RaunchyPally
      I think you got the gist/meaning of it. There's a dichotomy in this community between those who wholeheartedly support Inno (and will defend her from the negative comments) and those who criticize her and her decisions, sometimes with toxicity.

      I've been following this game for a few years now and I've seen this blog turn into a true toxic fest of people hurling insults at each other, to the point the developer had to turn off Anon comments, twice. Right now, some people are upset, skeptical and/or downright pessimistic about it, but it's not as bad as it was.

      This here a basically a tug-of-war. The more people defend, the more the critics feel the need to be harsh, so she doesn't get the wrong message. But the more criticism there is, the more vocal the defenders become. Catch 22.

      The current issues with the development have been predicted a while ago. The more the game grows, the more complicated it becomes to put out all the fires, so to speak. Inno used to be able to release once every two weeks, more or less, now that gap is growing larger. Right now, it has been more than a month since 3.9.9 released... and it looks like it still needs another week or two. This trend has been going on for a while as well.

      I remember saying back in the day that the current pace, Inno was better off being more realistic about her schedules and just saying she needed a month between releases. Well... whether she admits it or not, that's what we are getting right now. People are upset that a complicated game is taking longer to release with each passing year, and the source of it lies in the fact she keeps adding goal-posts that weren't there instead of working on stuff that has been planned for a while. It took her a whole year to add Patreon-related content, during which the rest of the game sat on the back burner.

      Inno choose an awful time to be adding the race mod framework, is all. Before this it was the Patreon-promises, then a bunch of side-content for Dominion, then a companion rework (companions got dropped off), then another thing, and another... they just want progress to move on already. A call back to a debate we had earlier - progress in a direction is good, but you also have to make progress forward, not just fiddle around to justify another month of pay.

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    9. @Ivory
      Good to hear from you again! I definitely hear you about the dichotomy, which is why I'm happy to see comments from you, Carl0s Danger, Pope, etc. Y'all tend to be really good about calmly stating your views, having a good conversation, and allowing that reasonable people can disagree and that's okay. One of the things I really like about y'all.

      I've been playing the game a while, but only very recently went into the comments section. Even with my very limited perusal of the game, what you describe sounds correct; the delays do seem to have been getting longer, and content sparser. I'll take your word for the patreon-content, too; I don't remember it at all, which probably says something all on its own about the impression it made on me.

      I think you're correct that Inno chose a poor time to add the race mod framework. It's got to be hard for her, too; coding interfaces is seldom rewarding, and not nearly so fun as e.g. writing dialogue. And there's merit to what you're saying that while any progress is good, it may not be good enough for the people sponsoring her. I really like what some (E.g., Raznaak, among many others) suggest about hiring on a programmer to let her focus on the story/direction part and let someone else handle the fiddly bits. I also agree with what Carl0s Danger has said multiple times that, in the absence of anything else changing, we would like (and she would be better served by) focusing on the quest content over any mechanical changes.

      Also, as an aside, I'd like to double down on my thanks to you for helping to explain to me, and being a damn fine conversation partner while doing so; I really appreciate it!

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    10. Hey, 3rd Anon, guess what.

      https://imgur.com/a/dMRKhZR

      Looks like it'll be more than just a month.

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    11. "despite my astronomically high monthly income on my SubscribeStar received from Reddit moderators"

      lmaoooo "Reddit moderators"

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    12. Saturday be like

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    13. Jesus, are you lot entitled. Fetish games rarely are updated with high frequency, 30 days between updates is FREQUENT by fetish game standards. Don't forget that game development is not something you can do overnight, and unless she has a team the size of a typical development company, it's gonna take a while.

      You're lucky there's ANY development AT ALL, and that she takes the time to even TALK to us. I've seen SO, MANY, fetish games go completely dark having not even a post TALKING about progress for YEARS, if that. Most end up dead, complete silence, never to get a post from the developer again(Don't believe me? Ask around Eka's Portal). Maybe I've been desensitized and have become a bit jaded, but I consider it a blessing if a game even updates once a YEAR. If you're giving her money, you can complain, but if you ain't, STFU! All this negativity is exhausting.

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    14. You could just not read them. It's not like most of the comments are directed to you.

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    15. @Turbotowns

      Yeah, I think all of it is exhausting, kiddo.

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    16. @Turbotowns

      For what it's worth, I agree with the sentiment. My personal view is that each release is a gift, and one I'm grateful for. However, I think the other view that Inno said she'd make it a full-time job, got the support she asked for to make that happen, and therefore has effectively promised a full-time effort does have merit. It's not the approach I intend to take personally, but it seems to me to be less, "I deserve an update" and more "you promised an update, so why aren't you doing what you said?"

      I think there's also a strong element of the notion that voicing displeasure at the delays is necessary to motivate her to progress. Again, this is a point I disagree with fairly emphatically (see UbieEftiem's comment tree, below) but the evidence seems to be mixed on whether negative feedback is helpful in motivating people, long-term. I think you and I agree that positive feedback is better for long-term motivation, but the converse idea seems to have about the same empirical backing as our notion. (If I'm wrong about this, please let me know; I'd positively LOVE a source that shows that positivity gets more productivity than negativity.)

      I'm also not sure that what other devs do is intensely relevant. I think it touches on this discussion, insofar as it helps us set expectations, but I think the core of the argument isn't, "*I* expect a new release every month" and more "*she* promised a new release every month." (Which, incidentally, she didn't do explicitly; Ivory and I have had some good talks about the two competing notions of paying Inno for a product versus paying her for her efforts, in which she makes effort but does not guarantee a particular product release.)

      All that said, I want to agree with you 100% on the negativity (which I think of as more the insults and mean-spirited posts) is tiring. It really is. Though I must say, I've been really pleasantly surprised by some of the nice conversations I've had, even with people who initially were a touch caustic. So for what it's worth, I think the situation is salvageable, when we all talk to each other like human beings. :)

      @Anon 31 October 2020 12:59
      You are entirely correct. Nobody is making us read the comments section. I don't know Turbotwon well enough to speak to their own views, so I'll only speak for myself: My worry is that a toxic atmosphere in the comments might prompt Innoxia to figure, "Nobody likes what I do anyway and all I get for my work is hate. Fuck this, I'll get an office job where at least I might have supportive coworkers." So in this way, I'm less concerned about my own reaction to the comments (though I still am a little, since I foolishly continue to read them :p ) but my greater worry is for the game which, I think, we all want to progress, the coddlers and critics both. Does that make sense? (Or, more likely, did I answer a question you didn't have? :p In which case, sorry for wasting your time.)

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    17. @Archie
      Yup. Not much else to say, especially after my ramblings above. Yup, it's exhausting. But I think people can be encouraged toward politeness, mostly by extending the same courtesy toward them as one might want oneself yourself. It 'aint easy, especially when someone is just shouting, but it seems to make some difference.

      I'd like to say that I really like the tone of your response just now (31 Oct 2020 20:51). I think that's the kind of tone which can open interesting conversations, and I wanted to say thank you for it. Your OP in this thread wasn't bad, either; you didn't directly insult anyone, which puts it above a third of the comments here. However, I'm not sure what you were hoping to do with it. It has a satirical tone which, while amusing, doesn't seem to suggest any changes. At a guess, it sounded like venting, just expressing your frustration with the delays and worry about her giving up because she's (in your view) misallocated her efforts. (I could easily be wrong here; please correct me if I'm misinterpreted what you say or assumed something about your intentions.)

      I guess where I think a lot of the reaction comes from is that it could be interpreted as attacking Innoxia. (Which I don't think it is, but when folk are sensitive it's easy to see slights when none are intended) It would've been nice if the first Anon replied by asking you what you meant instead of trying to silence you, 'cause telling people to shut up ALWAYS elevates the conversation And I'd like to give you major props for not rising to the bait. So thank you for that; you helped keep the tone civil. (A bit more snarky than I might prefer, but shit man, I prefer conversations sunshine and unicorns, so my preferences can hardly be said to be "reasonable". :p )

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    18. @Archie Woah, I've been severely critical of Inno's decisions in 0.4 development and even I wouldn't be that harsh, yet. It isn't that bad. You have to remember Inno is kind of a newbie dev in terms of skill, so there will be issues and there will be delays because of them.

      @Pope of The Church of Vrelnir Both sides need to cool it, she neither needs to be constantly hounded, that's how we get abandoned games extremely quickly, nor does she need to be coddled, that's how we got all those Patreon devs that spin their wheels and post to make it look like they're doing something to get money.

      @Ivory Definitely a good point. If Inno hadn't added things in the middle of freaking development instead of, oh I don't know, waiting for the game to be story complete, we wouldn't be in nearly as bad a position here as we are now.

      @Raunchy Pally The only thing negative comments like we see in this blog are good for is making Inno quit outright. Negative constructive feedback is good for development, blatant negative attitudes are not.

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    19. @Alex2011

      I concur completely with your reply to me. I don't think we see eye-to-eye on the use of positive comments ("coddling"), which is A-OK. (I haven't been able to find evidence one way or another on that.) But it sounds like we're entirely in agreement that the hostile comments only hurt the development, and in the conclusion that we wish people would calm the heck down. (I think you, Pope, and I all agree on this point.)

      Thank you, as well, for a well-phrased comment! I really appreciate that you've stated your opinion kindly and constructively. Not sure what it means to you, but you've made a stranger on the internet happy with your style. :)

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    20. @Raunchy Pally Ah, let me clarify. Not every positive comment can be considered coddling, just when it gets excessive to the point where there is a sense that the dev has done no wrong in cases where, Inno in this case, has. If the dev makes a decision that is ultimately the cause of a delay, which is the case in all but one delay in 0.4 development so far as Inno decided to put race modding in at a point it was not scheduled to be added and then proceeded to cause issues by adding it that further delayed progress on the fields content that was in fact scheduled for 0.4 ever since the roadmap was added to this blog, then the dev needs to hear the complaints, not that it's okay or that they are doing good work or whatever the comment may be. While Inno has done good work in the past, that does not mean Inno's work on 0.4 so far has been good. It has not been, in fact, this is the worst development cycle since I first started watching the blog. On the reverse side, the more obvious issue is excessive negativity, which I usually refer to as antagonizing. Yes, Inno needs to hear when a decision they made was incorrect, but all this 'it won't happen' or 'the game isn't going to be finished,' whatever the case may be, is just going to discourage Inno and then it really won't happen. What both sides need to do is tone it down and include some constructive criticism. For example, 'The race modding is good, but you really need to crack down and get the long standing goal of the fields fulfilled' or something to that effect, though not necessarily on the same part of the game.

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  4. Remember when we were told it would be released on September 8th?

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    1. Lol, if you have been here for a while, you still didn't get the trend? I'm sure there won't be ver4 to the end of this year for sure, we'll just have another "i'm sry", and that's it

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  5. It is somewhat tiresome. Updates used to be biweekly for public, with a delay or two now and then. Now it's months between subscriberstar updates and more between public. Its nearing 4 months since 3.9, and we already know that the one week for fields afterward is going to either be delayed, or take a full month or two for barebones content... definately not going to be done in a week as said.

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    1. cool. fuck off then. not sure why you need a game like this to fulfill some part of your life

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    2. It doesn't. Don't know why you feel the need to defend updates taking 3+ months. You want it to be the norm?

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    3. I cant believe people are defending these delays. Once or twice is okay, but this is every fucking update now. She literally states on her subsciberstar that she treats this as her full time job, but it doesn't seem like it.

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  6. I still await the day where I can be a feral demon... Will the dream ever come true at this rate?

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  7. Great so whens actual content coming out? Like you know actual fields encounters and more story we've been waiting on ever since you foolishly put pointless side quests ahead of everything else. No wait don't tell me after this comes more unwanted side quests that should've been put in near the end of the game.

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    1. Dang guy, relax. Nothing is easy right now and they are doing their best. Just be happy people are giving you anything at all right now. I personally think it's worth the wait.

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    2. I'd love to relax but considering previous "updates" im not willing to be nice anymore we've been trapped in the city for a year now with no real updates to encounters or story plus fields was delayed in favor of pointless sidequests no one really wanted. If Inno can't or won't listen to people about shoving pointless or tedious side quests ahead of actual story progress and new encounters I see no reason to rela or be nice.

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    3. You see no reason to be nice and I see no reason for you to be aggressive, If you're not happy get out of here because you're just being a ☆asshole☆.
      I want to see the new races and I have more interest in the side quests, looks like there's two types of players in this game,no?

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    4. It's sure are two types - one who cales other "assholes" for no reason, and those who not.

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    5. @Gorod

      Heh. I take your point. Though I might argue that both of them have behaved poorly; OPAnon was snarky right off the bat (I've yet to see anyone convinced by snark) while ReplyAnon (Pandaboo?) threw the first Ad Hominem punch by calling OP an asshole. Pretty sure I haven't heard anyone be convinced by being called names, either.

      @OPAnon

      I'm hearing from you that you think Inno's development decisions were misguided, and that she (and her followers) would have been better served by focusing on the main quest instead of side quests and new races. I happen to agree. I think where Pandaboo got their hackles raised was at the sarcastic tone, feeling that Inno is unlikely to be swayed, and perhaps even demoralized by your comment, lowering the chances that she'll finish her game. (After all, you must agree that it's hard to put week after week of work into something if people are berating you the whole time, no?)

      @Pandaboo (& replyAnon?)

      What I'm hearing from you is that, absent holding a Patreon or SubscribeStar membership, all of Inno's products are free, so it seems ungrateful to complain about a free thing. (Looking a gift horse in the mouth, effectively.) I also agree with that. There is something I might share with you, however: I've heard it said that dissent is a form personal investment. You don't bother to speak out for something to change unless you believe, at least a little, that the thing to be changed is worth having in your life. Otherwise you just walk away.

      I've found it's much easier and more productive to look at complaints and criticisms in that vein; if they care enough to say why something is bad, then some part of them is invested in making it better, and in that way they are not unlike you. The disagreement happens in the "how to make that happen" part, and that's where the productive conversations can happen.

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    6. @Gorod

      You are absolutely right. I suppose I have not been waiting as long as some others, so the overly aggressive approach seems just that to me; overly aggressive. But I do also understand frustration with this kind of stuff. I will say after reading some of the far, far more aggressive comments, I probably owe OP a slight apology for viewing their comment as half as bad!

      With that being said..my gosh there really is some aggression peppered throughout these comments, though.

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    7. I completely tagged the wrong person. I meant you, @Raunchy Pally. Apologies to Gorod!

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    8. @Pandaboo

      I had wondered about that, but I've also posted several times with some pretty silly errors I had to immediately correct, so I feel you on that one! *high fives!*

      I also agree that there's a lot of aggression. It's disheartening for me to see, and none of it is even directed at me! (Yet; I'm sure I'll piss someone off eventually.) It's especially hard when they have points, but those legitimate complaints/criticisms are hidden by aggression. I've found that little gets my goat like people, espousing views I agree with, but justifying them poorly; there's a truth there, but it's being hidden because any opponents will latch onto the parts which aren't important! That's part of why I'm (probably foolishly) trying to respond to so many comments. If they care enough to post, I assume they have good reasons for their words; I'd just like those reasons to be the topic of conversation, not the tone. (Which, to be fair, fuckin' everyone gets. Shit, I had a tone with Ivory a few updates ago, which was utterly unwarranted. I'm just glad she managed to see my thinking and not just my butthurt. :p )

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  8. at this pace CP2077 will release before v0.4...

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    1. lol rly XD like how slow you have to be - to be over raced by CP which was delayed many times

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  9. Reminder the real estate office still says it'll receive content in v0.4

    I don't think I need to tell you that's not actually going to happen.

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    1. Never, I guess... Just check when the last actual content update came out, and realize, that this game not in the work,.. it's in the comments.

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  11. damn, a lot of negativity in this comment section. I'm not going to pull out the old Shigeru Miyamoto quote, since it's far more than a bit over-played, but I will say that you should take as much time as you need to get stuff done. The fact that these updates say things along the lines of "harder than I thought" suggests that you are working, it's not like with yandev, where he spends all of his time streaming. If your having difficulty getting the code to work, that's just something that happens, no need to let and of the other comments get to you. Good luck moving forward!

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    1. If there are a lot of negative comment, then I think there have to be reason for this, right? Oh, I know - December 2018 Version 0.3 Release

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    2. @Anon

      I'm not going to speak for UbieEftiem, but my personal view about negative comments isn't that they're unwarranted; they are, as the frustration from delays is significant. I think the argument is more that they're not helpful when they're rude or purely venting; this is a point smarter folk than me have disagreed on, so if you'd like to argue that negative feedback (without suggestions) plays a role in improving Innoxia's productivity, that could be a very interesting conversation. I just wanted to chime in that I don't think the argument is "You have no reason to be upset" but rather is "It would help more if you didn't berate the Dev."

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    3. exactly, this isn't a yandev situation where he's just sitting on his ass. No amount of complaining will make this any faster, your aren't providing any motivation, only stress.

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    4. "No amount of complaining will make this any faster."
      Neither will any amount of coddling.
      /shrug

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    5. @UbieEftiem

      I agree with what you're saying. I will also say there there seems to be an opinion that Inno requires pressure to work. I don't particularly agree, and it sounds like you don't either, but we also don't have any evidence one way or the other. I still tend to default to kindness where I can.

      @Anon
      I don't think anyone is implying that coddling will improve the speed of development. I think what is being argued is that constant complaining may prompt Inno to abandon development. I will say that your comments in this thread don't strike me as the kind to get her to give up the income; they feel sarcastic, but not caustic. I think what UbieEftiem is talking about is more the "why u no develop game bitch go die" style comments. Do you see what we're getting at here?

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    6. "I think what is being argued is that constant complaining may prompt Inno to abandon development."
      There's no basis for this idea to even exist in someone's head.

      No, I get what he's referring to. It's just disingenuous to think he's not using the bad comments as an excuse to dismiss all of us. This is how it's been for a good while, now. One person says a really mean thing and nobody actually even responds to it, like the ones below saying "FUCK U INNOXIA." But, if someone makes a rational point about Innoxia's delays and work ethics, those always are the comments that get flooded with White Knights. Almost like no one actually thinks the critics are that bad and just pretend to be offended as if the rational comments are just like the brainlets typing blatant insults.

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    7. @Anon

      "There's no basis for this idea to even exist in someone's head."
      I disagree emphatically. There is, in fact, scientific literature on the subject of burnout from negative feedback[1], especially in the absence of positive feedback.[2] And that's just from a quick Google Scholar search by a layman with no training in the field. You sound very convinced, however, that negative feedback will not cause Inno to give up. Do you have anything to support that assertion? I imagine your confidence is based on something, so perhaps you'd be willing to share it with me.

      I'm also curious why you're so sure he's referring to all comments, instead of just the clearly rude ones. I reread his comments, and they seem ambiguous to me. Which, incidentally, means that you are completely justified in interpreting them as applying to all negative commentors, not just the insult-spewers, which I agree, is unjust and not helpful. I'd still like to know why you chose that interpretation, but I want to make it clear that it's a reasonable one to take, in my view. (Which, incidentally means I owe you an apology for misinterpreting you earlier; my bad. Sorry for putting words in your mouth.)

      I think we agree that there's a place for rational and calm airing of grievances, and that they should be neither silenced nor dismissed out of hand. Frustration in response to the delay is entirely within the realm of a normal human response, and several critics (what should we call that camp? "complainers" sounds derogatory to them, and "detractors" is flat-out inaccurate) have made cogent points about a better direction for development and solutions to the problem.

      If I may ask, is there any particular language which would make it more clear when we're referring to the brainlets, as you so nicely put it? I think most of the so-called "white knights" (myself included) tend to want to address those most of all, and it's really not helpful when criticisms of that group unfairly splash onto the more rational critics, to whom it doesn't apply. (I do believe there's room for a discussion of methods, still, but first it may be good to stop people from shouting at each other. :p )

      Finally, I want to say thank you for clarifying. I know that, as a stranger on the internet, my opinion 'aint worth much, so I really appreciate you taking the time to explain where you're coming from and teach me a bit about why you think and feel the way you do. You had no obligation to do so, and you did it anyway, so I'm grateful. Thanks, Anon. :)

      [1]: Maslach, Christina, and M. P. Leiter. "Burnout." Stress and Quality of Working Life: Current Perspectives in Occupational Health 37 (2006): 42-49.
      [2]: Maslach, Christina, and Susan E. Jackson. "Burnout in organizational settings." Applied social psychology annual (1984).

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    8. "Do you have anything to support that assertion? I imagine your confidence is based on something, so perhaps you'd be willing to share it with me."

      Yep, exactly what you said: The unrelenting, even cringeworthily, unnecessarily common positive feedback even when Inno screws up royally.

      "I'm also curious why you're so sure he's referring to all comments, instead of just the clearly rude ones."

      Do they ever point out which comments in particular it is that offend them? Nope. I just explained to you that it's always the reasonable posts that consist of anything more than a direct insult to Innoxia that get all the attention from the Knights of White. Can you argue that?

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    9. @Anon

      Okay, I think I'm starting to understand now. You're saying that, because there are relentlessly (it sounds like you might characterize it as unwarrentedly) positive feedback she gets, the negative stuff isn't likely to push her far enough to quit. Am I understanding you correctly?

      If that's your argument, then alright, I could see that. Sort of a, "You take the good with the bad" approach. I also note that you don't seem to have argued that the coddling shouldn't happen, only that the criticism should likewise not be silenced. While I'm not sure I agree this is the best approach, it is a completely valid one. (Again, my apologies if I've misunderstood what you're saying; please be assured that it's born of ignorance, not malice.)

      I would submit that positive and negative feedback may have a nonlinear relationship; one compliment may not perfectly balance one insult. However, this is only my gut feeling based on my own experiences. (Personally, I've found insults stick with me a lot longer than praise, but that might be an artifact of my depression.) There does seem to be evidence for this as well, but while it's fairly clear that negative information gets more attention in general, the relationship is sensitive to details.[1] So tl;dr: I think arguing that they balance out is no less supported by evidence than my view, and thank you for drawing my attention to this; I learned something because of you!

      Regarding pointing out which comments, I try to, and I've seen several comments also try the same. (Usually just saying "you", but at least they limit the target of their rage to a specific individual.) That said, yeah, that's a good point that many, probably even most of the comments are addressed generally, not specifically. So that's a good point; I'm glad I owned up there that you're justified in your interpretation, 'cause you have a very strong point there.

      Finally, I wanted to thank you again for being willing to chat with me, explain some of your points, and generally help me understand you and your arguments a bit better. There was no reason why you had to, so I really appreciate you taking the time to do so.

      [1]: Smith, N. Kyle, et al. "Being bad isn't always good: Affective context moderates the attention bias toward negative information." Journal of personality and social psychology 90.2 (2006): 210.

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  12. Man, I personally don't mind as I have other sources of entertainment, but at some point you've gotta admin you need help.
    Hire somebody to help you (or if they're willing to volunteer like some already offered in the past...), doing this alone is just evidently not doable anymore.
    I like this game and I want to see it grow, but at some point, some things gotta change.

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    1. Agree, game is not growing at all for like 3+ months already, and that's while corona spread all over the world... I dont know how she spends her life time, but what I know, is that most of the world are just stays in home - which is a huge opportunity to build some progress, and the progress is what I can't see here.

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    2. I really like this approach. There's a strong argument that "One person can only do so much." It sounds like Raznaak and Anon here both agree that the delays are genuine, and are seeking a solution. I think this solution is fantastic; as awful as COVID is, it does mean there are lots of people out of work, who would be happy to have even a $1k / month job doing coding and debugging. This would allow Inno to make more progress, grow her subscriber base, and hopefully end up making more money because of it.

      I also want to complement both these posters for acknowledging their limited information (Anon's "I don't know how she spends her life time" is highly relevant) and giving a good faith and very polite and well-reasoned argument for a potential solution. Rock on, you two!

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    3. its true but we all know that not gonna happen right? *sigh*

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    4. @Kur

      Perhaps. If you're right, I'll continue to be disappointed. Still, hope springs eternal; maybe for Christmas, Inno will hire someone! This is what I chose to believe because it makes me happier. :p

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  13. Thank you for heads up, looking forward to fields update! :D

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  14. At this point, you can be disappointed but you can't really be surprised.

    Of course, this is precisely why Inno should have pushed through with the initial Fields content before working on the race stuff (aside, of course, from the fact that said content was in the roadmap). It was inevitable that the extra race stuff would have bugs and would drag out longer than "expected".

    Some Fields content would have provided the fanbase with something new to do and then Inno could have worked on the race stuff.

    I mean, it's not like I don't know exactly what I'm going to be doing with the new race stuff when it comes out (shemale Spider-taur librarian @ Lilaya's with the "use you" permission, maybe staff the kitchen with Nagas), but come on. That's nice, sure, but it's not necessary.

    It's time to make your game now, Inno.

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    1. @Carl0s Danger
      I agree with you that Inno's efforts would be better spent on expanding the main story. While I might quibble about being surprised or not at the delay, that's really not the important point that you're making. I'm hoping Inno reads these comments and might change her work plan going forward, once she gets through the mod framework.

      I'm also curious; some (e.g., Raznaak and others) have advocated hiring on someone to help her. What are your thoughts on that? You're among the commentors who I've come to appreciate, so I'd be curious to hear what you think of the proposal of hiring on someone to help.

      Also, as an aside, I wanted to thank you for presenting your ideas in a factual, non-inflamatory manner. As little as the opinion of a stranger on the internet might matter to you, I wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your tone and comments.

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    2. From what I understand, it's the writing that Inno enjoys and is good at. I doubt she wants any help with that, at least until her main story is complete.

      Which leaves the coding.

      Which is tougher than it might seem. It's not just a matter of hiring someone to implement the ideas she comes up with. In order to maintain control over the game, she's pretty much got to understand what's being done by any "contractor", so - from a certain point of view - she might as well do it herself anyway. The only other possibility is if she entered into a full partnership with someone she trusted to do the coding side of things.

      This latter one is a real possibility. The game as it is currently is laggy as all get-out. The combat/perk/magic system is going to have to be completely revamped. A customisable avatar mechanic that generated portraits of characters would be great (though I doubt it will ever be done without drastically cutting down on the number of variables).

      So, if someone could create an entire new engine to which the current content could be ported over to, and which Inno could buy outright, that might be something. But then you run into the problem that anyone who could do that could just make their own game without Inno at all.

      So it strikes me that there are a couple of Catch-22s in the way of Inno getting "help".

      That said, if Inno just stops trying to add extra features and mechanics to the game, an enormous amount of forward progress could be made on the main quest relatively quickly. Just get into a pattern of forward progress, followed by bugfixes, followed by forward progress, followed by bugfixes. I also suspect Inno might become more motivated once development gains some kind of momentum. So for me, at the moment, that would be the way for Inno to go.

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    3. @Carl0s Danger

      First off, thank you for your reply! I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Also thank you for your analysis; it presents some hurdles I hadn't anticipated.

      I think I see what you're getting at about hiring a coder. A full partnership, while nice, doesn't seem to be in the cards without substantially more financial support, which also isn't likely to happen until the main quest makes more progress. And that's assuming someone Inno feels comfortable working with, who has the requesite skills, is interested, which is by no means a given.

      I feel like there still may be wiggle room with respect to plain 'ol hired help. In particular, in my personal experience (which is worthless as proof, so if yours differs feel free to ignore this) the worst part of coding isn't designing the framework, but bug hunting. I feel like she could work with the coder to establish the framework, or at least outline the general form and function she wants it to take, and then leave (a competent) subordinate to plug away at it and crush some bugs. (Finding a competent subordinate is another hurdle; they exist, but they also tend to be employed already.) Does what I'm saying sound reasonable? If not, I'd appreciate hearing where I may be getting mixed up; you seem to have a solid grounding, so I value your opinion. :)

      Finally, I'd like to echo what you said about putting off the extra features and mechanics. There will be plenty of time for that later. While a few here are really looking forward to what she's working on now, they seem to be the minority, and I agree with your argument that if she finishes the main quest first, it'll expand her supporter base, give her more income, and then let her make all the tweaks she wants. (It will take more effort to make the tweaks with more content in place, I think, but the trade-off seems worth it to me.) I also agree that it's easier to keep motivation and keep one's spirits up when you're making progress; I suspect if she focused on the main quest it'd be easier for her to continue, to say nothing of quieting much of the complaints.

      Thank you again for your response; it gave me some things to think about, and I really appreciate you taking the time!

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    4. Your idea for Inno to employ someone as a "bug-hunter" gets around my objection. Sounds like a good idea. Of course, everyone playing the game is a de facto bug hunter, but "this seems broken" doesn't tell her what the problem is.

      As for it taking more time to make tweaks with content in place, you're probably right there too, but I can't see how Inno's going to do the final rebalancing of combat/magic/perks/slaves/etc. without having the full picture to work with and get feedback on. Ideally - LT being an RPG - one would want the progression of the MC's power to be spread over the entire game. ATM, you just get Orgasmic Level Drain, go fuck some Imp gangs and your MC is maxed out before completing what is essentially a prologue. Four "Futacow" Imps in your milking room gets you over a million flames per day, at which point money is no obstacle.

      One thing that I suspect is going to have to happen as the game goes forward is that progression is allowed up to lvl 100, but that progress is "gated" behind defeating Lyssieth's sisters. Another is moving the milking room option out of the city (and probably nerfing it quite a bit), so that you need to defeat Lunette to establish a "Dairy Farm" out in the Fields.

      Just to correct you on one thing though. I don't have any experience worth talking about with coding. My experience is with running TTRPGs, but rules hacking has taught me that a designer can't be their own playtester. It's all very good to have a neat new idea for a new mechanic or a novel encounter, but you've got to get it out there and have some players stomp on it for a bit to work out where the flaws are.

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    5. @Carl0s Danger

      Good point on the tweaks; it sounds like you're saying that it's less "Do 10 hours of work now or 15 hours of work later" and more "Do 10 hours of work now... and tweak it 10 times (1 hour each) as the story progresses, versus 15 hours of work later." (Numbers are made up, but I tried to preserve the ordering.) That's a good point; even if she frontloads on features, she'll probably want to tweak them as she goes anyway, which will also take dev-hours.

      Point taken on the programming experience front. Running a TTRPG is quite a lot like programming a game (from my experience with both) in that, no matter how often you ask yourself, "How can players abuse the hell out of this?" there's always something else.

      I'd also like to take a moment to reaffirm that I think we're agreed on the core points. While hiring someone to bug hunt might help, and be worth doing, regardless of the outcome there, it sounds like we both agree that she would be best served (and her fans would be best served) by her focusing her efforts on the main quest.

      Thank you again for your detailed responses; I really appreciate it, and enjoyed this conversation. :)

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    6. @Rauchy Pally
      I'm not sure if you were around back then but the reason why Inno hasn't hired yet it's mostly because she doesn't want to. To be fair, her reasons were posted a long time ago so it's possible to have a change of heart since then (and me forgetting some details).

      Basically, the long and short of it is that she doesn't want to hire because managing a team takes time away from development. Also, complications typical to long-distance employment may arise.

      First, she would have to find someone who knows how to code, preferably someone who is somewhat familiar with the game. Otherwise, she would have to spend extra time teaching them the ropes and a newbie would be more of a detriment and time-waster early on rather than helpful. Basically, it's an "investment" that you hope to get a return on, but she may prefer more immediate results.

      Secondly, there's communication. People around the globe have different schedules and even those in the same timezone may not be available at the same time as the project lead developer. This means there are gaps and waiting time when an order/request is issued and when a reply/answer/submission is written back. For some people, waiting for someone can be less fruitful than just doing it yourself.

      Third, reliable and trustworthy people are difficult to find. There have been projects in the past that got screwed over due to disagreements and team members splitting off and taking their work with them, effectively killing the game with it (aka, Breeding Season). Also, it's just hard to find someone who has the time, disposition and passion the main developer has - someone who will not abandon ship come next month or so, either because they lost interest or something better came along.

      Also, Inno may not have enough money (or be willing to split it) with other people. She lives in the UK and set up 2.5k to treat this game as her full-time job. While some are willing to work for less, if she's being fair and hiring someone from her country, full-time, she would probably need about another 2.5k. 5k total. She's close but not quite there yet. Also, there are artistic commissions to take into account as well, as every so often she requests a new portrait for X or Y character.

      So... yeah.

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    7. @Ivory

      You make (several) good points. You're correct that I don't think I was around back then (or if I was, I wasn't paying attention) when she said she wouldn't hire someone. Even if hiring were a good idea, if Inno says it won't happen, that's all it'll ever be. I still might discuss it hoping to change her mind, but I doubt a windbag like me on the internet will prove too compelling for her. :p

      Your argument that team management takes away from dev time has plenty of merit. After all, if it were easy there wouldn't be people who's entire job is project management. It still might be worth it, if other qualities/numbers line up, but even in the best case scenario it's a murky question, not so cut-and-dried as I presented it earlier. I'll address your points in order in what follows.

      1) Finding a coder: This is another good point. While I don't think it'd be too difficult to find a coder out of work, your point that it'd be another time investment to conduct the job search is well-taken. It's more dev-hours siphoned away from progress in the short term which, as we've all seen, can royally piss some people off. So basically, from a time perspective, it'd be a short-term and potentially even medium-term loser, really playing the long game, which is a challenge to do.

      2) I can see this concern. I don't think I agree, personally, but it's a valid one. My own experience (which again, doesn't count for spit in terms of proof; ignore it if it doesn't match what you've seen) is that even international communication isn't too bad any more. My brother (lives in the States) is working with a programmer in Poland right now, and it seems like they're doing quite well. I've conducted most of my business this year remotely because of COVID. It's by no means as good as in-person, but it's doable, especially for a project with such a clear division of labor as "Writing vs Bug Hunting". That said, my experience likely isn't representative of the common one; I may not agree, but that doesn't mean that this point is any less compelling, doubly so for people who's experience are contrary to mine.

      3) Reliable people: This is perhaps the most compelling point for me. I touched on it earlier, (competent people "exist, but they also tend to be employed already") but you've highlighted an especially poignant fear around it. The concern isn't just that they wouldn't do their job, but that they might actively hurt it by gutting the project with an acrimonious departure. This presents a major freaking downside to hiring someone one, and one which shouldn't be ignored. Even if Inno does hire somebody, she should do it with this point in mind, so thank you for making it.

      Finally, the money is a factor. I think I was arguing that, if she completes the game, her income might still increase in the net, sort of a "smaller piece of a bigger pie" argument. But again, that's all well and good for the year or two down the road when the main quest is finished and her supporters are giving $10k/month, but that doesn't do diddly to make the pay cut today any easier to swallow, both in terms of comfort and need.

      In conclusion, thank you for your points, Ivory! It's always a pleasure discussing with you, and you've raised some good ones I hadn't considered. This really helps me understand Inno's current bath a bit better, and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

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  15. "$2,500
    Financial security, allowing me to treat development of Lilith's Throne as a full-time job."

    ... from this point I hope you are going to loose subscribers, because you are not doing you job.

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    1. This exactly.

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    2. What I'm hearing is that you expected Inno to treat this as a full-time job, and that you don't feel she's lived up to her end of the bargain. I agree with you on the first point, but I disagree on the second.

      She promised to "treat the devleopment of Lilith's Throne as a full-time job." That promise work, not a timetable for products. I agree that it's very frustrating that more hasn't been done. However, a game like this which procedurally generates so much is the kind which, in a business setting, could be expected to have time and cost overruns. An old project manager's axiom is that the point isn't to PREVENT delays, but to MANAGE them. They happen.

      All that said, I can totally understand where you're coming from regarding thinking she'll lose subscribers. Your view, that progress (and not effort) was promised is a common one, and I suspect there will be subscribers who withdraw support. I'm not sure, however, why you "hope" she loses subs; do you want the project to die? I suspect not, or else why would you comment?

      I'm guessing you're hoping the financial change will modify Inno's behavior. I'm not so optimistic; others (Carl0s Danger comes to mind) have made the point that she stands to make MORE money once the main game is complete, from adding sidequests and drawing more subs with a high-quality game. If you agree with this, then why do you think she has not finished it?

      What comes to mind for me is 3 options. 1) The delays are earnest and outside of her control. 2) She is prioritizing present time use over future earnings. 3) She is not accounting for future earnings.

      1) is what I assert. For 2), there must be a reason for it, especially now, in a time when job opportunities are hard to come by. Without a particularly compelling reason why someone might do this, I won't discuss it further. 3) has an easy solution; instead of trying to get her to lose money now (which may be ignored) instead focus on potential gains later on. Others have been taking this approach.

      I'm still not sure what your objective was with your post; I have a guess, but I guess wrong more often than not, so I won't bother trying to read too much into an internet comment. (Beyond what I already have, heh.) I do hope you'll consider what you want to happen, and what would be the best way to proceed to get it, keeping in mind that most people react defensively when attacked and are unlikely to listen if they feel they're being insulted.

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  16. Man, people here are suddenly game devs. You should all go make your own game if you think you'll never have to change roadmaps or have delays working something out.

    Also, very much damned if you do, dammed if you don't going on here.

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    1. and if I do so what??

      Also, I know some more game devs: Toffi, Eluku, Akabur, Enlit and even Majalis, lol. All of them are making games non stop, and non have such delay streaks, no progress posts and waysting times. Innoxia says thats it's her full time just, but we can't see any 'job' here.

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    2. @OPAnon
      I concur wholeheartedly. Your presentation was a tad abrasive (more likely to get, e.g., replyAnon to be annoyed than consider their viewpoint) but the core point is one I 100% get behind.

      @replyAnon:
      You're talking about other game devs. Nobody is arguing that they have delays. They're arguing that Innoxia's project is different, and different projects have different requirements, problems, merits and delays.

      Do you program, 2nd Anon? I ask because I do, and it's taught me the madness which is computers. This is a field where a program fails to compile, so you delete a semicolon, then type it back in the exact same place, and it compiles. And that was with a 100 line program. A game this size, with trees of functions and variables and Inno knows how many lines of code? The task gets exponentially harder.

      I'd also like to point out that e.g. Toffi's games tend to be platformer/fighting. Those require far more art assets, which are less prone to delays, and far less coding assets, which are the finicky delay-causing kind I mentioned. Your comparison is saying, "Why is it taking you so long to build that bridge? My house was built in a year." The types of engineering involved are related, but very very different.

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  17. Lot of people disappointed, and I'm not gonna lie, I'm one of them. But the in general rudeness is uncalled for. I mean come on, at the end of the day, the game is free, payment is optional. People have lives they have to live, they can't dedicate 100% of their time to their work. And even big companies have delays, look at WoW's Shadowlands for example. Just stop crying and get over yourselves.

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    1. Thats just one easy side to say!
      On the other side: dont pretend that you making progress! I came here few years ago. I was so into the game, it rly gets me. And here: see active community, alive chat, and replys from dev, I also immidiatly became one of subs...
      But right now..., so much time left, I spend my money and time (yes, that was my choice). And now I feel fooled by her, because all I can see she is doing - non stop apologies with delays, instead of actually working on the game. And at this point, I do have my line to argue! Also, seeing as you telling about other devs, how about check other solo dev's, instead of companies? I mean Toffi, Eluku, Akabur, Enlit made a pretty good job for last years, and here we can't get ver4 for 2 years already.

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    2. @Anon2
      What I'm hearing from you is that you're frustrated with the lack of progress being made on the game. I share your frustration. I'm also hearing that you feel that she's been dishonest in how she represents her progress. However, I believe there is an important distinction here which I didn't see reflected in your post.

      There's an important distinction between not making progress, and not putting in the work. If you're a coder, you're well aware that it is the nature of programming for unexpected, game-breaking bugs to pop up and have to spend lots of unexpected time trying to squash it. This is especially true in mechanical updates, which has been the focus. So your assertion that she isn't working on it strikes me as a big assumption which, given the updates we have seen, is unsubstantiated.

      I'd also like to address your argument that it's been forever before getting v0.4. Four years ago, we were on version 0.1. While Inno could have called the last update version 2.7, it wouldn't have made a difference; version number is not a good way to compare progress across different developers.

      @OPAnon
      I concur regarding the rudeness. Disappointment is a perfectly reasonable response. A healthy skepticism is also a reasonable one, although I don't share that one. (I have too much coding experience to expect rapid progress.) I might point out, however, that your post is less likely to engender civility, and more likely to start a flame war; "Get over yourselves" isn't a phrase which tends to cause people to reflect on their ways. :p

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    3. @OP Anon Agreed, but the unnecessary levels of coddling are also uncalled for. Inno has done nothing to deserve it.

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    4. @Alex2011

      Regarding coddling, I think you address the argument that many coddlers are making, but not the reason why they make it. (Which can be disingenuous, but that's its own problem.) In another post (link at bottom) I make an argument about why the coddling is made. The tl;dr is that (I suspect) they don't feel Inno deserves it, but do feel it will result in getting the game out faster. Does that make sense? Also, if I misunderstood what you were saying, my apologies for wasting your time!

      https://lilithsthrone.blogspot.com/2020/10/more-progress-news.html?showComment=1604539589289#c7531193565737255395

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    5. @Raunchy Pally Unfortunately not, in my experience, coddling has led other devs to just get lazy and only post updates to their Patreon page to keep people paying them. This has led to anyone using Patreon getting an inherently negative reputation as 'just another dev who will promise everything and deliver nothing' as several devs I have witnessed have done. Praise can be a good motivator, but only when it is used in moderation so that a dev does not continue down a path that will ultimately lead to the game stalling indefinitely.

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  18. FUCK U Innoxia

    u just a biggest time waster evar!!, who pretend to be gamemaker

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    1. @Anon

      I'm hearing a lot of frustration in your post. However, I'd ask you what you're hoping to accomplish with it. If someone starts shouting at you and cursing, you're not likely to change your behavior. If you want Inno to change her behavior, a gentler approach may be required.

      On the other hand, if you're just venting, then I want to say that your feelings of frustration are valid; progress has been slow. Inno has said so, and expressed her own regret about it, so if you're frustrated, that's not just okay, that's reasonable. However, your phrasing seems designed more to hurt the person who has given you something for free, which strikes me as... dubious, ethically speaking.

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  19. Take your time :p. There is pandemic so nobody should even blame you for ot keeping the deadline. I just can't wait to see dragons in the game. Not in mod it would a bit weird. They even could have their position in the storyline if you think about it. They are a legendary creatures. I am a bit disapointed because i was hoping it would get out before my birthday so my disabled ass could play something interesting. My whole family is working the whole day so i thought that nobody would catch me playing it. And i already got a full house of slaves on the previous version. To make it more chalenging i was colecting only virgins. I hope that making this game is giving you some joy and everyone who is blaming you here for "NoT KeEpiNg tHe DeAdLiNe" Should be ashamed of himself. She need time to do all this work alone and new ideas are not growing on trees.

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    1. What a hypocrite, chec comments again! Nobody blaming her about deadlines, we blaming her about making 0 progress for like last years.
      And if you bring here pandemick card - it's much easier to make games right now - when people forsed to stay at home all day.

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    2. @Unknown
      I concur; I think we both are greatly looking forward to the new content, but it sounds like we both agree that there are extenuating circumstances, and we wish her well and hope she overcomes them soon.

      @Anon
      You make a number of claims there. What I'm hearing from you is that you're frustrated, feel that she's made very little progress over the last year, and you don't think the pandemic is a valid reason for delay. I'll address these in a moment, but first I'll respond to some of your claims.

      1) Unknown is a hypocrite: You've provided no evidence of this. What standard has Unknown held others to to which they themselves have not been subject?

      2) Nobody is blaming her about deadlines: I call your attention to the Anon comment, 28 Oct 2020, 19:45: "definately not going to be done in a week as said." On previous updates, there have been many in that vein. What it sounds like you meant is "The point isn't deadlines, it's progress," which I could see. Using words like "nobody" tends to raise the odds that your statement is false.

      3) 0 progress: She has made progress. Not as much as we'd like, but it's been progress. Many items have been added, a few side quests, a few morphs. I agree that it isn't the content I wanted, but dismissing it as 0 progress is factually false.

      4) Pandemic card: It is not easier to make games. Your argument is that, without anywhere else to go, she has more time to work on the game. This is unlikely to be true; even before the pandemic, she dedicated her working hours to this game. (Or claimed to; I believe her, but we also have little proof of this.) Being unable to go anywhere in no way magically creates additional time if it was all slated for game dev work. Beyond this, I would argue that being unable to go places *decreases* productivity; there's a reason why breaks are mandated in workplaces. Being able to take a break often leads to you coming back to the task refreshed and working more efficiently. Without other places to go, the opportunity for breaks (e.g., walk in the park) are diminished.

      Beyond that, there's the added stress of the pandemic. If you're worried about, e.g., a close relative fuckin' dying, it's going to distract you, lowering productivity. If your donations start drying up because people are out of work, and you have to start looking for other sources of income (or doing more homemaking work to try to save money) then it cuts into your game dev time.

      What I'm hearing from your post is that you're frustrated by a lack of progress in the direction you wanted, you feel that others are misinterpreting this frustration as being about deadlines, and you want her to make more progress. I agree wholeheartedly on all points. Where I think our opinions diverge is in the presentation.

      Put another way: If I start calling you names and insisting that everything you said is wrong, will you listen to me? My guess would be "no", because who gives a fuck about a stranger on the internet? If your intent was only to vent, then I suppose you accomplished your goal. If you actually want someone to change their behavior (e.g., Unknown, or Inno herself) then calling names is more likely to get you ignored than listened to. Exaggerations similarly distract from your core and legitimate points. If you hope to get Inno to change to make more progress, or Unknown to actually see the point you're making re: progress, then you may wish to consider changing how you present your views.

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    3. Do anybody even know how hard is to implement new features? You thing i dont want dragons to be added as fast as it would be possible? Programing is hard because every new thing can lead to a bug or even destroy the game . And there is the problem of the ideas for the content. If i had money for it i would even try to help her with the ideas that could give a small variety. Sadly i cant. She is doing the best she can to make her game. If we kill they joy of making this game she will resign from making it completly. We should be more respectfull because she could as well stop doing anything but she keep going even with the all the hate uner her posts. I hope you will understand.

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    4. @Unknown

      I suspect you already know this, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. The argument that she needs pressure to work is a reasonable one; I don't quite share those beliefs, but I can see their merit. Ultimately, I think I come down in the same place as you; I'd rather have a late game than no game at all.

      Also, 100% yes to the new feature implementation bit. My god, computers are little devilboxes, like rampaging tigers. Sometimes, programming isn't controlling the tiger, it's just clinging on and frantically tugging its ears to try to direct it to where you want it to go. *shudders*

      Delete
  20. I feel guilty-proud for getting you to post by joking corona got you

    ReplyDelete
  21. You know shit is bad when the majority of the blog comments isn't just simping for Inno anymore. the fact that this post reached a 50/50 in the nature of the comments really shows that these delays are grating on people.
    Inno gets plenty of advice from everywhere, from getting help from another coder to just NOT adding pointless things to the game, but she ain't listening. If it's going down this road, the game will certainly never be finished.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The delays aren't what are grating on people, they happen to every dev, they aren't exclusive to Inno and are especially prevalent with Inno because of how new Inno is. Inno's skill level going into this project was not very high from what I understand and an extremely ambitious project like this is not a good practice project, so that skill level likely hasn't improved much. The real issue is the recent terrible decisions. (Cutting off companion support, revamping the elementals and breaking the entire goddamn game in the process, putting in content that wasn't planned for the section of the development roadmap we are in like the race modding not being originally meant for 0.4, etc.) We likely wouldn't have had half the delays we have without all these terrible decisions.

      Delete
  22. Hey! i'm glad everything is fine, since you took kinda long to post an update i was worried that something had happened.

    don't rush yourself ok?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think there's any cause for concern over rushing here.

      Delete
  23. I always wonder just how many people posting on this blog who are continually complaining every time there's a post are actually subscribers? Progress may be slow but I don't think anybody here knows of Bo-Wei and Koda and their project, Tower of Trample if they think Innoxia is bad. There hasn't been a substantial update to that game in two years or so despite how they're getting $4k a month through Patreon, with its developers constantly setting a deadline for release and then delaying the update by another two weeks, and repeat. Lilith's Throne has made much more progress than that game at least. It's almost like some people are so dependent upon these developers for entertainment when there's at least a hundred other activities (and games) you could play in the meantime. Get over yourselves already.

    If you're a subscriber and you don't support her lack of timely releases then simply unsubscribe. If not, then you have no real power to influence her and your complaining is pointless.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or Kemo Coliseum, or Blackgate, or Tusk, or Bonfire, or After Class, or Tailbound/Thirstchasm...

      Granted, I think it's still fair to complain about these delays, because at this point this is just ridiculous, but you're right that it's not WORSE than most other erotic games, just kind of standard in this field lmao.

      Delete
    2. "you have no real power to influence her and your complaining is pointless."

      So is yours, hypocrite.

      Delete
    3. @anon

      If you're the same one who posted all the times above, then 1) Please adopt some sort of name so it's easier to address you. Doesn't require an account or anything, just means, if you want people to hear and understand you, they'll have an easier time doing it. Also, 2) "hypocrite" You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      If I'm way off base, and you're not the same anon... 2) sort of applies. He never claimed that he could influence Inno, only that people shouting about delays would not. You might argue that complaining to strangers on the internet is similarly pointless, in which case you'd be right. (In which case, why are you doing it? What are you hoping to achieve by your posts?) But that's a new argument, not one which MundaneDrugde made, so he still wouldn't be a hypocrite.

      @Cuix I can see your point. While I personally feel that complaining isn't likely to get much done, you're correct that we, as humans, have a right to our own emotions, and to voice them. (Insofar as they don't hurt others, but I'm pretty sure no internet comment here is going to cause a riot or stampede or murder.) And your characterization of the delays as standard in the field 'aint too far off, either.

      Delete
    4. The same people telling Inno to "take it easy" are the ones telling everyone else their opinions have no effect on Innoxia. Why do theirs do nothing, but yours do? Yours don't either. Therefore, hypocrite: Take your own advice.

      I know wtf a hypocrite is. Do you? X.

      Delete
    5. @Anon

      First, I note you still haven't identified yourself. I suppose you won't bother. A shame, but there's nothing I can do about that.

      Second, your argument that people who say "take it easy" being the same ones who say "complaining doesn't do anything" is valid. However, MundaneDrudge didn't tell Inno to take it easy. So again, you're mislabeling. Now, I may have missed where he spoke to Inno is his post up there; if so, feel free to quote it so I can learn from my mistakes.

      I also wonder again what you're hoping to do by posting. You're taking time out of your day to do it, which you could've spent on something else, so I assume you have a reason. Damned if I can tell what it is, though; if you're trying to convince people, calling them hypocrite (especially if it's misplaced on the person your responding to) seems unlikely to change anyone's mind.

      In conclusion, I'm not sure you read the OP thoroughly, seem fixated on the label "hypocrite" for some reason, and while you have a legitimate complaint (people who tell others their complaints won't change Inno's behavior shouldn't also coddle Inno to try to change her behavior) I don't think that's what's happening here.

      Delete
    6. No, I'm just here to watch the dumpster fire of a comments section burn. I'll be honest. I'm not the other Anon, either, that you're referring to. His English is clearly worse than mine.

      Delete
    7. @Anon

      Fair enough; I come here to try to pour water on the dumpster fire, so I suppose we're pretty similar in that respect. Different objectives, but similar motivation. And thank you for clearing up the identity problem for me! Upon reflection, you're right that your English is much better. Thank you for explaining your motives to me! As silly as it may be, I like understanding why people do things, even strangers on the internet, so I appreciate you taking the time to let me know. :)

      Delete
    8. It doesn't really matter how many are subscribers since it is a free game. They do make valid points, just not with the best delivery of said points. It would be nice if they could be a bit more constructive. You know, less things that make Inno feel more like quitting and more things that could actually help Inno fix bugs, scheduling, or text errors.

      @Anon You do have a valid point, people need to stop coddling Inno, but they also need to stop being destructively negative, too.

      Delete
    9. @Alex2011

      I think your post summed up my feelings quite nicely; well put!

      Delete
  24. I was joking when I said it would be funny if we didn't get Fields in October

    ReplyDelete
  25. ... What the heck happened while I was gone?

    Jesus christ, I leave for a few weeks and come back to no race mods and blog posts filled with comments.

    I'd post my mod updates but I'm pretty sure they'll just get lost in the war of opinions. I might have to just wait until an actual release comes, when things calm down.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well played PPA. You made me straight-up lol. I salute you. :D

      Also, I wanted to thank you for your work on mods; I imagine it's a pretty thankless task, but it enhances the experience for everybody, so on behalf of everyone who enjoys what you make, thank you.

      Incidentally, you're not wrong about the war of opinions. <.< I've enjoyed a few good conversations, but yeah, a lot of this reminds me of grade school shouting matches, just with more profanity.

      Delete
    2. Things may not calm until long after the fields are complete, I'm afraid. I'll be trying your mods when there is less chance of incompatibility because of an update, something that happens to Renpy games all the time, not sure about Java.

      Delete
  26. Summary of the comments section:

    "If you don't like it, stop paying."
    "If you don't pay, shut up."
    So basically, "If you don't like this, just shut up: paying or not." Okay, glad we got that out there.

    So, let's stop pretending anyone actually cares who pays or not. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Anon

      I'm not sure that's a fair representation of the comments section. I will, however, grant that you've summed up the Innoxia Supporters/Coddlers (depending on who you ask) in the more vitriolic portions of the comments section quite well.

      If you'd like to see some folk state their opinions without trying to shut down others, I'd recommend Ivory's and Carl0s Danger's comments to start. There's plenty of room for disagreement without silencing anyone. (Except, perhaps, the people who exclusively hurl insults, but they seem to be a small, if vocal, minority.)

      I'd be happy to explain the reasoning behind the sentiment you quoted, if you like, but I suspect you already understand what they mean, and simply take exception to how they come across. (I.e., trying to get the people who are dissatisfied to shut up.) If that's accurate, then for what it's worth, even as someone who falls into the "coddling" camp himself, I agree with you; telling others to be quiet REALLY 'aint productive.

      Delete
    2. Since it is a free game, it doesn't matter who pays. The blatant hostility and coddling both need to stop. Give Inno the comments that are necessary, nothing more, nothing less. Anything else will either lead Inno into becoming the next lazy Patreon dev that posts every couple of months so the sheep keep paying or into abandoning the game entirely.

      Delete
    3. Bet you can't actually point to this alleged "hostility."

      Out of dozens of comments under this blog post alone, literally less than 5 could be what any rational person would consider "hostile" and they far outweigh the coddling. No point telling you this, because you're one of coddlers assuming criticism occurring at 5% of the rate (recently increasing, to be fair) at which the defending occurs somehow is going to demoralize the dev and because this is obviously a stupid case to make, you have to pretend the few "hostile" comments that do exist are so extreme that they somehow outweigh the dozens of coddling comments.

      Delete
    4. To add more to the response to Alex2011: I've seen you flip-flop between critic and coddlers a lot. So, I actually don't really know what your actual beliefs about this are, so I just picked one and went with it. If you don't consider yourself a coddler, so be it. But, it's hard to tell.

      Delete
    5. @Anon 4 Nov 2020 23:01 (or 23:04?)

      I'm not certain if you're the same Anon as the OP, but I'll proceed under the assumption that you are. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

      First, I'd like to respond to the "can't point to hostility" bit. It's a good point that people rarely quantify things, instead trusting their gut feel, and that the gut feels can be wrong. I'd like to confirm your count of 5 comments that could be construed as legitimately hostile. Lots of snark, but not much in the way of blatant hostility. (I've excluded replies to comments, because often that's hostility at one another, not at Inno.)

      Now I'll address the 5% criticism rate by counting up the "coddle" posts. I'll say in advance that I suspect this number to understate it; I will only be counting root comments (for the same reason as above) but I suspect the coddlers reply disproportionately to comments rather than post new ones. (Case in point: me. I haven't started my own comment thread yet.) I count 7 coddler posts. Again, I suspect there are more hidden within the comment trees, but if we start looking at replies we have to be very specific about what we mean by "coddler." If we mean one who tells others to stop complaining, I suspect the number will be higher. If we specifically mean those who tell Inno it's okay and to take her time and we'll be here when she's ready, I suspect the number won't change much. Either way, it seems unlikely that the 5% figure is accurate. (Mathematically, for it to be accurate, 100 of the currently 178 comments would have to be active coddling, which is a stretch, I think.)

      The notion behind that figure, however, holds merit. The coddlers (including myself; I'm a fuckin' windbag) are likely to be much more active in responding, precisely because we're responding, rather than initiating a new comment.
      (Continued)

      Delete
    6. (Continued)
      I would point out, as I did above, that there may not be a 1:1 balance of positive to negative. The exact nature of that balance is up to debate. Literature[1] suggests a clear attention bias toward negative stimuli. However, that same study found that access to "positive structures" can offset this. Unfortunately, this is far from conclusive. In the context of this problem, it means that without the coddlers, there is reason to believe that the negative comments could indeed weigh heavily on Inno. With the coddlers, however, the impact is ambiguous; the study wasn't robust enough to extrapolate very far.

      It does provide us with some scientific backing not for one stance or the other, but for this split we find ourselves in: the coddlers believe their positive feedback is productive. The critics (or at least the more eloquent ones I've talked to) tend to feel that it is not, and induces laziness. The coddlers, therefore, speak as much as possible trying to "help" in their mind by providing more positive feedback than negative. The critics, in response, feel the need to speak up to counterbalance it, in order to prevent her from falling into a lazy state. I'm hoping we can all deescalate the situation by having conversations like these, where we discuss facts and feelings and hopes and fears, rather than the shouting that I believe all of us dislike.

      Finally, I wanted to address the Anon 4 Nov 2020 23:04 being unable to categorize Alex2011; I suspect that's because (he?) is neither a critic nor a coddler. I believe, if I read him right, that he is a moderate, who wants the game and doesn't think this verbal arms race is good for anybody. (Please correct me, Alex, if I've misrepresented your stance. Or gender. <.< ) While I weigh in more on the coddler side myself, I really appreciate that stance, and feel that progress lies toward the mean, not the extreme.

      Finally, I wanted to thank both Alex2001 and the last two Anons for summing up their stances so eloquently and doing so without incendiary language. (With the exception of the "stupid case" comment, above, but I've said more offensive things, so I can't rightly judge.) I really appreciate that both (all three?) of you are talking this out like mature people, trying to understand and find middle ground. I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but it makes me happy to see lively but fairly respectful conversation! Thank you, y'all!

      [1]: Smith, N. Kyle, et al. "Being bad isn't always good: Affective context moderates the attention bias toward negative information." Journal of personality and social psychology 90.2 (2006): 210.

      Delete
    7. I'll define "coddler" here as "Anyone actively defending Innoxia from criticism, antagonizing the critics, and/or sending pleasantries and undeserved appreciation."

      I think you misunderstood what I was saying, anyway. I was saying 5% of the rate at which people coddle Innoxia is what happens to be criticism. That means take the number of "coddling" posts, now take 5% of that. That's the number of "hostile" posts -- they occur at 1 per 20 "coddling" posts; they're that minimal. If the "coddling" posts themselves are minimal by your own observation, then my point is that the "hostile" comments are even less and so miniscule it warrants questioning as to how people keep coming up with the idea that people are supposedly coming down on Inno like the Hand of God and how they keep exaggerating the degree at which the criticism comes. You also have to take into account that I'm obviously not talking about just this comments section of this particular post.

      Delete
    8. You also have to make sure the "hostile" and "coddling" comments are actually aimed at Innoxia, not the other commenters.

      Delete
    9. @Anon

      First, thank you so much for your response; I really appreciate that you're willing to engage in dialogue with me, especially when you're under no obligation to do so.

      Given your definition of coddler, I could see where you'd get the ratio you mentioned. Also, thank you for providing it; I might argue for a different definition, personally, but now that we have a shared and working definition, I can better understand what you're saying, instead of making strawman arguments against points you never made. (I hope I don't actually do that, but I can't imagine my ignorance would be totally benign.)

      With respect to this post's comments, I think I still would argue against the 5% figure. With 5 hostile comments, it still would require 100 [Calculations below in footnote 1] coddle posts to make the rate, which is more than half of all posts from this update. Given how the more reasonable people tend to reply more often, I have trouble thinking that knee-jerk reactionaries so dominate the conversation. That said, I think I agree that, by your definition, coddling posts are far and away more common than the initial hostile posts.

      I would suggest, given your definition, that we expand the definition of hostile posts to include not only posts hostile toward Innoxia, but toward perceived coddling as well. At the moment, I'm unfortunately too busy to do a census of the comments myself (so why the fuck am I posting at all? <.< Damn, I really don't want to do my work, I guess. :p ) but I would submit that if we include responses to other commentors in both the hostile and coddler camp, both numbers go up substantially. (Note: When I came up with my 5 hostile, 7 coddler figures, those were only counting comments aimed at Innoxia, as you suggested, not at other commentors. Because you are absolutely correct that what we're talking about is comments aimed at Inno, not at other peers.)

      I'd also like to take a moment to acknowledge a good point of yours; I have only been examining this update. You- rightly, I think- suggest that including previous update's comments will shift the results more toward the figure you mentioned. I believe that; it seems like the comments have been a little more discussion-heavy lately (yay!) compared to the past couple updates, which would dilute the numbers. So I wanted to acknowledge your point here. :) I haven't examined past updates because... I'm lazy. I wish I had a good reason, but I just don't feel like going back. :p

      (continued)

      Delete
    10. (continued)


      Your argument that, because I found few coddle posts, there must be fewer hostile posts, assumes that your 5% value is unassailable. My (crude) census doesn't seem to support that figure, but if you want to conduct a more thorough one, I'd be interested in the results.

      Finally, as to the question of why people have the idea that a small number of toxic posts can influence Inno despite the larger number of coddling posts, I think I provided scientific literature to that affect in my previous post. It is a psychological fact (according to current literature) that people tend to pay more attention to negative stimuli than positive ones. This is why coddlers, I think, are so active about trying to silence the hostile comments. Where I think the reasonable place for disagreement is, is your argument that there is a balancing effect. There is strong evidence (same study) that access to positive influences can help counterbalance negative ones. However, the exact ratio isn't even speculated upon in the study. Therefore, because there's no data on how many compliments balance an insult, this is a matter of opinion, not fact. Your belief that the coddles more than balance the hostility is valid. My belief that it does not is also valid. Neither appears to have the weight of evidence behind it.

      Does that make sense? It sounds like you have a well-formed (and well-argued) opinion, and I think I'm starting to understand it. (Please correct me if I've misunderstood or misinterpreted something you've said, and my apologies if I've done so.) Can you see where the other side is coming from? (Note: note, "do you agree", because from what I understand of your stance, it's valid in its own right, and needs no change, merely, "can you see why the coddlers so aggressively engage with hostile comments".)

      Finally, I want to thank you again for your response; I really, really appreciate not just the fact that you responded to try to teach me, but also that your tone is admirable; it's presented dispassionately, clearly and explicitly, casts no aspersions on others, and generally discusses things calmly and rationally. As you yourself have observed, that's dishearteningly rare, especially when people disagree, so I want to thank you, emphatically, for your approach.

      [1]: Given: Hostile Posts = 5% Coddle Posts
      Hostile Posts = 5
      5 / 5% = 100 = Coddle Posts required for the 5% ratio to hold

      Delete
    11. "With 5 hostile comments, it still would require 100 [Calculations below in footnote 1] coddle posts to make the rate"

      Not necessarily. A ratio of 1 "hostile" to 20 "coddling" is still 5%. Anything less than 20 "coddling" comments would mean pretty much 0 hostile comments, which is usually the case, because people don't really feel like they can criticize Innoxia at all, let alone in the midst of nothing but "woohoo" and "great job" and "i have right to speak on how you do your game so please master may i have another?"

      Delete
    12. @Anon

      tl;dr: I think we have a fundamental miscommunication. There are 5 (6 now) hostile comments. They're right there. You can see them. I don't understand why you're arguing that there would be 0 comments with 19 or fewer coddling ones.

      More expanded:
      I get what you're saying about how, mathematically, 20 or fewer coddling posts can still happen. Where I'm fuzzy is why you're making this argument; it seems irrelevant, because (by both of our counts) there are 5 hostile posts. (6 now if we include Remedy's.) I'll provide a more complete proof:

      Assumption 1: There are 5 hostile posts. (We agree on this, I think.)
      Assumption 2: For every 1 hostile post, there are 20 coddling posts. (This is what you assert.)
      Assumption 3: There are fewer than 100 coddling posts. (I haven't heard you explicitly reject this, and it seems reasonable to me.)
      Math 1: 5 hostile posts * (20 coddling)/(1 hostile) = 100 coddling posts
      Math 2: There are 100 coddling posts.
      Contradiction: Math 2 contradicts Assumption 3.

      Given the contradiction, one of our assumptions must be wrong. I think we agree on assumption 1, and assumption 3 can be verified or disproven with a census. (I think you accept it as-is, but I could be wrong.) The only one left is the unsubstantiated Assumption 2 of the 5% ratio. That's the thrust of my argument.

      You seem to have a solid grasp on numbers. I doubt you'd make such a mistake, which is why I think there's a miscommunication somewhere. I'm having trouble seeing what it is that you're trying to argue, but I doubt you're saying there are 0 hostile posts. My argument is that the 5% figure is not accurate. Would you be willing to clarify what you're arguing? I'm frustrated that we seem to be talking past each other, 'cause it feels like you have a good point, I just am having trouble seeing what it is. (I've probably made a bad assumption somewhere, so I really appreciate you discussing this with me.)

      I'm also hearing that you feel silenced. I'm sorry for that; silencing legitimate criticisms is a shitty thing to do, and counterproductive from almost any point of view. The outright hostile comments could use revisions to be less caustic and more constructive, but what you've said so far in this thread has been well thought out and worthy of merit.

      I also wanted to thank you for talking with me; you are under no obligation to do so, and from your tone appear to be doing so mostly from trying to get me to understand, so I really appreciate that you're taking the time to do so. Thank you, Anon; even though I'm being thick, I really appreciate your efforts.

      Delete
  27. go fuck yourself with your delays bitch

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @111

      Wow. Aside from the utter lack of punctuation, I'm wondering what she could have done to engender such hostility. I suspect you're just a troll who doesn't even think of Inno as a person with feelings and things to do with her life, and thus someone you can verbally attack. If I'm wrong, I will be thrilled to have a conversation with you, because it sounds like you have some serious emotions about this which I'd like to ask about. Either way, unless she kicked your dog or something, I think the reasonable upper limit to a response to delays should be somewhere around, "Ugh, this again. I'm frustrated and think she's going about the development all wrong, and won't be getting/revoked my subscription because of it."

      Delete
    2. >unironically using yikes in 2020

      KYS please

      Delete
    3. @Anon 30 October 2020 2:52:

      Oh, Anon. I really don't like that phrase. I also realize that you probably couldn't give a fuck at what some stranger on the internet likes or doesn't like, but speaking as someone with depression, that phrase can hurt. Prolly won't kill on its own, 'cause the giving no fucks at internet strangers cuts both ways, but it can hurt.

      While it's POSSIBLE you're fucked up enough to actually want to cause emotional distress to strangers on the internet... I doubt it. (On a statistical basis, Psychopaths are only ~1% of the population.) So, while admitting that I could be wrong and you really do want nothing more than to cause other people pain, I'm going to assume you had another reason to post. May I ask what it is? What were you hoping to accomplish by telling 2:39 anon to kill themselves?

      Delete
    4. I was told to kill myself.
      YIKES.

      Delete
    5. @Anon 30 October 2020 13:20

      Alright, you got a laugh out of me. Well played. That is a very good response. I salute you.

      Delete
    6. I don't like KYS either, or people on twitter hoping Trump died from covid. People CAN NOT actually be this hostile, and wish people genuinely dead, right?

      Delete
    7. @Turbotowns

      Yeeeeah. It's something I don't quite understand, yet. For stuff relating to the President, I guess I can see people thinking, for any given president, "Oh, the things they're doing are bad. If they stop doing it, it'll save lives. So if that one human dies, more other humans live." So for something like that, I really don't agree (human life is precious in general, which includes people we don't like) I guess I can see why they would think that.

      Actually WANTING them to die, though... Yeah. *shakes head* There are folks who genuinely don't care or want to have people be dead. Like, they can sit with the idea, accept it, and their resolve doesn't waver. I don't think there's very many of them, and generally I wouldn't want to be in the same room as one.

      tl;dr: Yup. Super agree with you; hard for me to fathom wishing death on strangers or even annoying acquaintances.

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    8. @111 Okay, that was just not necessary and accomplishes absolutely nothing.

      @Turbotowns Yes, yes they can be this hostile, especially when the D vs R political war kicks in. That has gone way too far. It isn't surprising seeing it on the internet since the internet can provide a sense of safety from consequence in certain situations, but the real surprise is just how hostile it has gotten IRL over the dumbest things like politics. It's honestly a scary thing to see.

      @Raunchy Pally I get the logic in that thinking, sort of, but that just isn't right, regardless of who it is. You're right, human life, all life is precious no matter what any one person has done. It could be Trump, it could be Biden, it doesn't matter who, none of them deserve that kind of crap.

      Delete
    9. @Alex2011

      Yeah, in general I tend to agree. I think the argument is less about what they have done, and more about what they will do. (I.e., if a killer is about to slay 100 people, and you can stop them but only with lethal force, do you?) That argument, however, is a very weak one, 'cause unless one is some sort of deity, one cannot see the future, and it's really hard to "take back" death.

      I do believe there are instances in which someone genuinely needs to die. However, the rule of thumb I have for violence is that while there are situations that warrant it, in general whatever situation I'm in is not the one. Same too with wishing death; outside of utterly contrived scenarios or a few choice moments in history, there's always a better way to make people better off without rolling heads. Not as simple or viscerally satisfying to me closet meathead caveman, but far, far better outcomes.

      Anyway, now that I've played Devil's Advocate for no discernable reason, I wanted to thank you for your post. :) I really like the way you phrased everything, sought middle ground, and generally submitted your opinion in a way that I really can't imagine would offend anyone. Bravo; this is the caliber of comments I hope to see more of. (And my apologies if my devil's advocacy annoyed you; it sounds like you have strong and admirable convictions, which I appreciate and in no way wish to discourage.)

      Delete
    10. @Raunchy Pally If deadly force is the only way in that hypothetical, yes, it must be done. Otherwise, another solution must be found and quickly.

      Delete
    11. @Alex2011

      100% agree. There are damn few circumstances where death is a valid option, so the preservation of life is almost never the wrong choice.

      Fuck yeah to rational compassion! *high fives!*

      Delete
  28. Replies
    1. @FightingGold122

      Heh, you and Kaizzer might get along.

      https://lilithsthrone.blogspot.com/020/10/more-progress-news.html?showComment=1603935129935#c6177673824195782272

      Delete
  29. PSA: Not coddling Inno everytime she doesn't meet a deadline does NOT mean you hate her. Coddling her does not help her in the long run, you are just reinforcing that it's okay to not meet her deadlines.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. PSA: There's also other things you can do between updates instead of excavating salt on a degenerate porn blog.

      Delete
    2. If that statement made you salty you're just baby. Stop white knighting and moving goal posts please.

      Delete
    3. Ah so you mean harrassing someone who makes a free open source project with literally no obligation to meet any deadline whatsoever is does mean you aren't a complete moron?

      also, developers aren't little kids, and especially not yours, what's ok for her in her project is for her to decide, not for you to "reinforce" or "help in the long run". what you're doing is abusing someone who's literally just taking too long to give you a gift, and you claim that's somehow in her best interest? fuck off asshole.

      and i mean "you" specifically and all the other morons who don't get that "free" doesn't mean "SLA" in general.

      Delete
    4. Let it be known to the world that telling someone what they're doing wrong is now considered "harassment."

      It used to require effort to actually harass people, but now you can do it just by having a different opinion! I guess I'll go "harass" my friend about his choice of necktie for his wedding.

      Idk man, this aggressive posturing is getting old.

      Delete
    5. @nonchip

      I think the argument there is that, because Inno had as one of her Patreon support levels that she'd treat the development as her full-time job, she promised, and thus owes, some level of effort. I'm still not sure how much I buy into that, personally, but it's a valid argument. So the argument there is that something IS owed. How much (and whether it's effort or progress) is another discussion entirely.

      I'd also point out that, (and @Pope of the Church of Vrelnir, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your views) Pope isn't saying that Inno owes us. I think Pope is saying that "coddling" Inno won't help *her* make her game. Put another way, if someone is told over and over that something is okay, they'll internalize it. If she's told over and over that delays are fine, some argue, she may come to believe that they are fine, and dramatically slow development. In this way, I think you, Pope and I are all on the same page; we want her to continue.

      @Pope of the Church of Vrelnir
      I think where you and I disagree is on the utility of complaints. I think I see your point of view that the coddling may diescourage progress. I'm still working through it, and whether it's something my experience of people supports, but the argument seems sound.

      The argument, I think, that people most often levie against it is that overwhelming complaints, especially if they get caustic (e.g., 111's comment, above) may encourage her to stop development altogether, on the argument that people tend to avoid doing something that they get shouted at for. (Even if only on the internet.) From other things you've said, I think we're on the same page for this, as well. You've said, explicitly, that people should stop bullying her. (Again, please correct me if I'm misreading your stance.) So I'd like to offer my apologies, on behalf of the Inno Coddling camp, for misunderstanding your statements: we have, I think, the same goals and same views regarding negative feedback. The only area we differ is on positive feedback, and even then it's a minor difference of opinion.

      @Anon
      I think what nonchip was referring to was the highly caustic comments (see also: 111's comment, above) which serve only to demoralize Inno, not to provide any useful feedback. That said, you're entirely correct that what Pope was talking about was not harrasment; Pope said nothing about caustic comments, only that coddling won't help the game. (Apologies again, Pope, if I've mucked up what you said.) So you are 100% correct that what Pope said in no way constitutes harassment, or even condoning harassment.

      I also want to agree with you, wholeheartedly, that the aggressive posturing is wearying. I admit, that's part of why I've been commenting so prolifically; I'm hoping that by being super, super loud about how the middle ground is a valid and good place to be, folks might gravitate back toward what they actually believe instead of feeling like they have to shout down a ridiculous argument.

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    6. My PSA was just an add-on not an attack so call off your dogs vrelnir lmao
      It's just tiring that every delay summons the unwashed masses to gather and shitpost.

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    7. @Anon

      I'm confused. You do realize that I agreed with you that calling disagreement harassment is incorrect, right? If you realized that, then I'm confused by the "call off your dogs" comment.

      I'm also wondering what you categorize as a shitpost. I believe I also concurred with you that the supercharged aggression on all sides is tiring. That's part of why I bother to makes these walls of text in response to short, caustic comments; I can't control what others post, but I at least try to keep my own post quality decent. Are you referring to my posts as shitposts? If so, I admit I'm a little hurt by that. Not much, mind you, since strangers on the internet aren't near and dear to my heart. Still, it's enough to make me ask: what kinds of post would you rather see? Or are you actually calling for silence? Or, more likely, have I misunderstood you entirely? Whatever the case, I hope you'll be willing to explain to me what you meant by the above post, and in the event that you do post, thank you in advance for your time. :)

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    8. That Anon (31 October 2020 at 01:17) wasn't me. I'm this guy (30 October 2020 at 13:19). Idk who that is or what he's going on about. We're cool, Raunchy.

      Delete
    9. @Anon (31-10-2020 1:45)

      Ah, hell. I got all confused. :p Thanks for the response, though! Relieves me great, since you seemed like a decent fellow/gal/nonbinary individual. I really appreciate you clearing that up for me! :)

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    10. *relieves me greatly
      Goddamn, I need to learn to read my own posts before hitting "publish" :p

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    11. Does my apathetic patience count as coddling?

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    12. You are correct, coddling will only lead to Patreon dev level laziness, but antagonizing will lead to abandonment, not completion.

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    13. my point stands, that "this way she won't ever learn" stance is wrong on so many levels. you don't even know her, so why do you think you know what's best for her and that it's your place or even right to "make someone learn"? she's not a little kid and you're not her parent.

      and calling it "coddling" to encourage someone do the thing we want done, or talk against the onslaught of literal abuse being sent her way (because that *definitely* won't help anyone get anything done) just shows how entitled you are being here.

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    14. @Nonchip: Is that why you're ironically here nannying us about our opinions? lmao

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    15. @nonchip

      I admit to being a little hurt by your tone. It could be that I've had a hard week and am overly sensitive, but it sounds like you're fairly irritated, perhaps even angry at me. You also appear to be implying that I, 1) think I know what's best for her, 2) have a right (and objective) to make someone learn. It also sounds, from the tone of your post, like you think I agree with the OP.

      To be clear, I do not agree with the OP. I personally believe positive reinforcement is far more effective than negative reinforcement, and thus understanding will be more productive than complaints to helping her complete her game. Neither do I claim to know her; I endeavor to allow at every turn that I have incomplete information, and have attempted to be forthcoming about both my objectives and my utter lack of standing when it comes to other's decisions because I'm a stranger on the internet.

      That said, I feel like your argument has overreached. Would you be willing to elaborate more on "wrong on so many levels"? There is scientific literature[1][2] which strongly supports the notion that negative reinforcement can assist in learning, or changing behavior in general. So with respect to efficacy, complaints have a documented impact on performance. I posit, and I believe we agree on this, that positive reinforcement is more effective, but sadly the literature is murky on this point.[3]

      You also make an argument about inherent rights. An important distinction is to be made here; if nobody has the right to try to change her behavior using negative reinforcement, then equally nobody has the right to try to change her behavior with positive reinforcement. If we assume that both endeavors are undertaken without malice, and in the kindest way possible, then there is no meaningful distinction between the two approaches other than method. Encouraging someone to do a thing you want is just as manipulative as expressing disappointment for them not doing the thing you want done. I happen to believe that it's far easier to be kind using positive methods, hence my advocacy of them, but if we're speaking only of base rights, the two methods have equal standing.
      (continued)

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    16. (continued)

      I want to reiterate that I agree with the feeling behind your words; I maintain that encouraging Inno in doing the things we want her to do is more likely to get the game faster than complaints. My point here is only that the alternative view has merit, and should be examined for what it is. I say this because I've been wrong, many many times, and unless you've never been wrong, it's worth considering the other viewpoint, either to become right if we're mistaken, or else to reinforce our believes if we're already correct. (Or, more often, to explore the gray middle ground where the facts are accepted by all, and it becomes a matter of opinion.)

      I'll conclude my wall of text with two points regarding tone. The first is a question: what are you intending to accomplish with your post? If you're hoping to convince others that they should be kinder to Inno, you may wish to rethink your tone. Calling an entire group of people entitled is very unlikely to spark an epiphany in them. It's far more likely to anger them, and get you ignored by the very people you wanted to reach. If, on the other hand, your intent was just to vent, then I suppose you've accomplished your goal. I still would hope that you'd make an effort to put things in a more neutral way, to avoid causing delicate flowers like me pain. I may just be a stranger on the internet, but I suspect you realize that I'm still a human being, just like all the other commentors, and my feelings are no less intense for being on the other side of a keyboard.

      Finally, I wanted to thank you for your response. Even if I got my precious widdle feewings hurt, I really do appreciate that you took time out of your day to talk. You were under no obligation to do so, and while I'm not arrogant enough to think you posted purely for my benefit, I benefited still, and for that I thank you. I've found that most people have good points to make, and I look forward to finding out more about yours. I also want to commend you on, despite what sounds like an emotional heat behind your words, you avoided, for the most part, insulting anyone. That's increasingly rare on the internet, and I really appreciate that you presented your views without overly focusing on your opponents. (e.g., it'd be easy to say, "What kind of monster tries to hurt an indie dev when they get her game for free?" but it would hardly be productive, so I appreciate that you avoided those kinds of attacks.)

      I hope you'll be willing to reply to my wall-of-text, and thank you for your time.

      [1]: Seunath, O. M. "Personality, reinforcement and learning." Perceptual and motor skills 41.2 (1975): 459-463.
      [2]: Holmes, John H. "Differential negative reinforcement improves classifier system learning rate in two-class problems with unequal base rates." Genetic Programming (1998): 635-642.
      [3]: Smith, N. Kyle, et al. "Being bad isn't always good: Affective context moderates the attention bias toward negative information." Journal of personality and social psychology 90.2 (2006): 210.

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    17. @Anon 4 Nov 2020 22:56

      Dude, you're not helping. If you're the anon who's just here for the dumpster fire comments, I suppose that's in keeping with your objective. (Sadly, I cannot differentiate between the Anons. Hence why I encourage adopting at least some moniker, so you don't have to listen to my shit. :p )

      If it's a different Anon... what are you hoping to do? If you're hoping to get Nochip to stop "nannying" us, I submit that laughing at them is unlikely to convince them to do anything.

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    18. @Raunch: My point is if people followed their own preaching, a lot of this wouldn't be going on. It's that simple.

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    19. @Anon

      I think I see your point, but I still wonder what you wanted to do with your comment. If your objective is to change minds, I assert that the tone of your comment will be amusing to those who agree with you and dismissed by those you seek to convince. So my question is this: what are you hoping to accomplish? If it's to engender a more civil and productive comment section, then I think we have the same goal. If it's not, then I confess to being flummoxed by your intent. Would you be willing to enlighten me as to what you intend?

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  30. Hey Inno, as a fellow programmer I can understand what you're going through. Sometimes there's fixing a bug that just results in even more bugs, especially in a complicated project, other times putting new stuff in can cause old stuff to break, and then even more times there's just pure frustration at not being able to code or fix a bug and getting discouraged.

    I know that there's a lot of angry comments here and I understand what they're getting at, but I do hope that you take care of yourself first and foremost, and don't let the bad comments get to you too much. I think it's really great to pour your passion into a solo project like this, and I love reading your patch notes and seeing the game slowly being developed, but do take care of yourself. I would hate for you to feel disheartened about your own project because of negative feedback (I've seen quite a few devs who have quit because of angry comments), and I do hope you take everything with a gran of salt.

    Please, take good care of yourself C:

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    1. @Anon

      I fucking love the way you put that. Summed up your stance, acknowledging the validity of the commentors without agreeing, and sending kindness Inno's way. You're a prince, Anon.

      (Disclaimer: I also agree with you pretty vehemently, so I'm also a bit biased.)

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  31. By the way... I wanted to know... Are all of the stuff in the encyclopedia obtainable legitamitably currently? All the clothes, items, weapons, etc?

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    1. Nope. Check out the debug menu for the full range. Whole bunch of items not currently added. Some, I'm sure, will never be legitimately added. Read the "readme" in your game folder for the code.

      If you're interested in where the game is supposed to be heading, read the description of the Arcane Rifle.

      Though there are unexpected ways to acquire some of the more esoteric items. October, for example, brings out the Lilith cultists for Halloween. They're dressed as witches.

      A lot of the Enforcer

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    2. ... gear can e accessed by either roughing up Enforcers or doing a mission that comes up after you've subdued the Harpy Matriarchs.

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    3. Thx. Also, how can we willingly enslave someone? The guy that told us the rules said that aside from criminals, we could only enslave those that are willing. Trying to look it up has resulted in failure(and a "quicksave test" resulted in an even greater failure).

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  32. What's the purpose of apologizing literally every dev blog? Of making a dev blog just to apologize for making a dev blog? This is a very clear, consistent, and long running pattern.

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    1. @Why?

      First off, I wanted to thank you for the tone of your post; you asked a cogent question in a way that wasn't inflammatory, accusatory, or any of the snarky BS we often see on the internet. I really appreciate you making your point calmly, so wanted to thank you. :)

      Secondly, this is only what I'm guessing since clearly I can't know Inno's mind. That said, one interpretation is this: she's apologizing because she said it'd be ready, and it isn't, and she feels an obligation to us to let us know and acknowledge the shortcoming.

      The question I'm hearing from you is why this is a pattern. (That is, why does she promise the update when, in your estimation, the delays are enough of a pattern that she could account for them.) Again, this is just a layman's opinion, but I think the reasoning has to do with the following:

      1) Updates are professional. If she went quiet for long periods of time, then we would have no idea at all what is happening. As it is, we at least know "at least another week." I imagine it kind of like studying earthquakes; you can predict with 10% confidence that there will be a magnitude 8 earthquake in the next decade. This is a low confidence level, but it's the best you have, so you announce your best guess and keep working.

      2) Financial incentives: Based off the comments, if she did not post updates, not only would she experience a drop-off in freeloader consumers like me, but I suspect many Patreon subscribers would vanish as well. After all, she promised to treat development as her full-time job at a certain subscriber level. We may be angry at the delays now, but if we had not even *claims* of her working, I imagine few people would support her.

      As an aside, I do believe there's wiggle room here; Dwarf Fortress has a long development timescale, and posts regular updates on what they're doing without committing to release dates. I'm guessing that you're suggesting she work more along these lines; I still don't agree personally, but it's a solid argument and you'd be right to make it.

      3) Personal obligation: Simply put, a lot of people like her game (even the ones, I think, who believe she's mismanaging its development) so she feels like she owes them updates. I'm reminded of some celebrities staying and meeting with fans when they're tired and just want a nap. In this way, she may be pushing herself to make releases because she wants fans to have them, and only afterward realizing the amount of work involved. (Especially since coding is notorious for unexpected and fatal bugs.)

      Thanks again for the tone of your comment, and for raising a point I hadn't considered before; a change in development style, at least in the programming updates, could be useful.

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  33. If you're not paying for the game or her work then stop bitching. If you are paying for it, then stop if you don't like how this is going. Stop criticising someone when you can't even understand what she's doing. Do none of you have anything better to do than wait on porn and then get mad when it's not coming fast enough?

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    Replies
    1. And why I have to stop if I payed for it?...

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    2. @OP

      What I'm hearing from you is that you don't like the negativity being directed toward Innoxia. I happen to agree. However, the way you phrased is, perhaps, too broad; it could easily be interpreted to mean, "Don't say anything bad about Inno or her process." That I disagree with fairly emphatically; there is always room for constructive criticism, and in fact it can be very valuable to devs to A) know what their fans like and don't like, and B) perhaps even give them ideas for how to improve their game further. For instance, I've seen very few people who would disagree with the statement, "Innoxia would be better served by focusing on completing the main quest rather than implementing new races." (Some would, but most of the people here seem to be able to get behind that statement.)

      I'd also like to point out that you assumed, implicitly, that anyone who criticizes her can't understand what she's doing. I believe this is a false assumption; several people in the comments have programming experience, and are aware of the trials of implementing new frameworks. Including that line weakens your (legitimate, I believe) argument.

      Finally, I'd parrot what I once heard, that dissent is a form of investment. If someone cares enough to complain, it means that, at least on some level, they are invested in the thing they're complaining about. After all, if they really didn't care, they'd just leave. In this vein of thinking, I'm very cautious about telling people to be silent, because we could lose voices which have valuable insight to improve a game which I enjoy immensely. (I think you were targeting this more on the more caustic comments, which I agree, should be more polite. However, there's a difference between saying "be nice" and saying "shut up".)

      @ReplyAnon:

      I don't think OP was saying you HAVE to stop paying. I think they were trying to say, "If you're angry enough to be rude in the comments, you'll have more of an impact in changing Inno's behavior by withdrawing your financial support." You could make a good argument that OP was going further and saying, "If you have complaints, stop paying."

      That last, the "If complaints; then stop payment" argument I disagree with, personally. It's possible for something to be less than rainbows and unicorns and still be worth one's time and money. (For instance, my chair has a tendency to slide the seat around, but I'm still better off with the chair than without. Doesn't mean the slidey seat isn't annoying.)

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    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    4. @OP
      The major flaw with your argument is that you leave no room to reach an understanding. If someone is a supporter, but they're unhappy, you tell them to stop supporting. However, if someone isn't a supporter, you tell them to "shut up" because they have no right to complain.

      In other words, if things were done your way, the only people who are allowed to say anything are those who coddle the developer at every instance and only have nice things to say. Constructive criticism is necessary to progress and improve. If a lot of people are complaining then chances are something needs to be addressed. The problem here, as I see it, is that a lot of people tend to treat criticism as a personal attack, rather than a medium for improvement.

      Allow me to propose a scenario - let's put Lilith's Throne aside and assume we're talking about any other game. How would you feel if you saw the dev being notoriously intolerant and passive-aggresive towards their community, every time any form of criticism is brought up? (Fortunately Inno is pretty tolerant, but if things were done your way, she would be a pretty different person to deal with.)

      What if they were like YanDev? Is that the kind of developer you like and support on a regular basis? If not, then why would we be any different with Inno and Lilith's Throne? Liking a game and/or supporting doesn't mean blindly accepting everything and being quiet when you think something is wrong or there's room for improvement. If you're being polite and reasonable, you should be allowed to speak your mind.

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    5. Laughing so hard right now at OP. Thank you for confirming my post:
      https://prnt.sc/vc7czf

      Or, post date and time: 30 October 2020 at 01:35

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    6. Ignore my earlier post, read what Ivory said; she said everything I wanted to in fewer words. Rock on, Ivory!

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  34. Remember when companions were The Thing That Held The Development Back? Good times.

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    1. Yep, then they got cut from support. No Inno, I am never going to drop that subject, you didn't just burn that bridge, you nuked it.

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    2. I remember! And I also remember how it got cut from support.

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  35. will there be an android version?

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  36. Version 3.9 was released on 05 August. Is it really gonna take 3 months to release one full version? Wouldn't surprise me if the next release was version 3.9.9.9, with 4.0 being delayed until next year.

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    1. you’re actually not too far off, the plan is to release a v0.3.9.10 before v0.4 comes out

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    2. At least, it could be some time early next year at this rate.

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  37. You know, I'm starting to wonder. The delays have been a pattern for a long time now. Its gotten to the point everyone expects them, and you must too, Inno. I'm not complaining. Yeah, its frustrating and disappointing and I get why some people do, but if I step back and look at it objectively this is pretty realistic for what a solo passion project, even one making enough money for it to be treated as a job, is like. Instead I'm just curious about something.

    If we all see the delays coming, and you must too then why don't you start just pushing your release estimates back further? People will be less frustrated in the long run by long release time estimates than they will by consistent delays, and if you actually take into account the pattern of delays while making the estimates then the lucky times you get releases out on time will become early releases instead, which I think would contribute greatly to less frustration for fans and less stress for you. If your actual policy is just "release it when its ready", then changing how far off your estimates are really doesn't change anything tangible.

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    1. The issue with the release dates is an old one. Inno has gone back and forth a few times between posting estimates and going by "when it's ready". I don't know why she insists on posting strict, unrealistic deadlines but I assume it's related to the same reason why she doesn't like to work under the "when it's ready" mentality.

      The release dates are more for herself than her followers - she uses it as an incentive to work harder, to try and get things done by said date. It never works, but she feels like without them, she tends to take longer to get things done. To be honest, I think the amount of time it takes her to get a new version out is more or less the same - without or without deadlines.

      Then there's the fact the community is split on this, as with a few other things. Some people prefer to have release dates while others believe the "when it's ready" is better. No matter what her decision is, someone will always approve or disapprove accordingly. I think the middle-ground - that most people prefer - is posting when it's ready but writing a progress report every once in a while, to get a sense of progression and to know what is being worked on. The issue is that she sometimes forgets about those (or simply doesn't want to) or only posts on her Sub.Star website, meaning a chunk of the community misses them and thinks she went radio silent.

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    2. @Ivory

      For once I'll be brief; I concur, especially with respect to that middle ground. And thank you for your analysis of the development history; this is something I don't know about, so I find it useful to hear about what Inno has already tried. Much obliged, Ivory!

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  38. Holy shit this is a fuckin bible!!!! You can bet that just like today's bible, Inno ain't reading this shit. I get that you're "upset" or whatever, but you're off your ass if you think any comments here mean jack shit! She's already got that bag!!!

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    1. @Anon

      If you're Inno posting as anonymous, then I would say you're right. Otherwise, I would suggest that you know her mind about as well as any of us others. You might also note that in many of the above posts, others have made a similar point; many of these comments are for each other, not for Inno. My gut feel from having read all the comments is that it's about a 15-85 split, in favor of peer-to-peer comments rather than fan-to-dev.

      In that vein... why did you post? I'm honestly curious, because your comment seems directed entirely at other commentors, just like the comments that it sounded like you were criticizing. While people sometimes do behave irrationally, I've found that more often I just don't understand their motivations. Would you be willing to enlighten me as to why you posted? I would very much appreciate you so educating me.

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    2. @OP
      What RaunchyPally said. Most of these comments are people engaging in a conversation with one another, they're not necessarily vying for Inno's attention. I should also note that Inno has mentioned before that she reads the comments on this website but doesn't have the time to answer to everyone personally (hence why she rarely ever replies).

      The comments who usually warrant more awareness are bug reports but even then there are better places to do so than this blog. You have GitHub (follow the guidelines on how to write a proper bug report) and Discord for those situations. Of course, you're allowed to write a bug report wherever you like but you also have to accept the fact that it can be easily missed in a sea posts, as it happens with this place (especially after several delays as that's when people tend to be more vocal and argumentative, easily writing over 100+ comments per blog post).

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  39. I thought it's will be Halloween update, but it's more look like will be Christmas update

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  40. Last week you said you would release an update earlier this week. Well, it's the end of the week and the update is still missing. And the explanation why this is happening, too. I think you shit yourself and fucked up again (I don't see the point in counting, you shit yourself every time you have a new post).

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  41. @Remedy

    Your point about delays is well-taken. However, I wonder what you're hoping to do with your comment. As it's addressed to Innoxia directly, it sounds like you want an update or, better yet, progress. I would submit that the tone of your message (particularly the phrase, "you shit yourself and fucked up again") is more likely to make someone get defensive and ignore you rather than change their behavior.

    If I'm wrong in your intent, please correct me. I also want to state that I think we are agreed that we would like an update, and even moreso would like a release.

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